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Battle at Blakeley 2012
08/07/2012 4:21:03 PM
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Coach, The open 5K that you are hosting, who is open to? Anyone or just 7th-12th grade athletes part of the AHSAA?
Coach,

The open 5K that you are hosting, who is open to? Anyone or just 7th-12th grade athletes part of the AHSAA?
08/09/2012 11:26:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 12
7-12 graders from AHSAA schools
7-12 graders from AHSAA schools
10/14/2012 1:19:36 AM
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Anybody else feel like the course was short? 15:30 is crazy, even for robert hope
Anybody else feel like the course was short? 15:30 is crazy, even for robert hope
10/14/2012 6:05:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
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I agree. I say the times were probably a minute fast. A lot of those guys were popping off times around a minute faster than they have been running all year
I agree. I say the times were probably a minute fast. A lot of those guys were popping off times around a minute faster than they have been running all year
10/14/2012 9:27:34 PM
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I am the course director and I measured the course 4 times with a wheel and came with in 10ft each time along with the course is 80% down hill. And as far as Robert Hope running 15:30, he ran 16:26 in the slop at Jesse Owens a week earlier.
I am the course director and I measured the course 4 times with a wheel and came with in 10ft each time along with the course is 80% down hill. And as far as Robert Hope running 15:30, he ran 16:26 in the slop at Jesse Owens a week earlier.
10/15/2012 7:49:48 PM
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@Steeplechasekj I am sorry, but i find it hard to believe that everyone averaged one to two minute PR's and that the course is a full 5k. Some of the girls that had not even broken 20:00 in this season broke 19:00. That would have to be a pretty ridiculously fast course. and that would an insane PR for Robert considering that his best previous time was 16:17 on a good course and that there was nobody within 30 seconds of him, meaning he would have had to run a 15:30 practically by himself.
@Steeplechasekj I am sorry, but i find it hard to believe that everyone averaged one to two minute PR's and that the course is a full 5k. Some of the girls that had not even broken 20:00 in this season broke 19:00. That would have to be a pretty ridiculously fast course. and that would an insane PR for Robert considering that his best previous time was 16:17 on a good course and that there was nobody within 30 seconds of him, meaning he would have had to run a 15:30 practically by himself.
10/16/2012 10:47:14 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Rankings don't mean anything. The 6A sectionals course in Madison last year had three kids run sub 16. When they got to state their times were way off from their times on the sectional course.
Rankings don't mean anything. The 6A sectionals course in Madison last year had three kids run sub 16. When they got to state their times were way off from their times on the sectional course.
10/16/2012 12:30:36 PM
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There's no difference between the improvements of the girls who raced at Jessie Owens then ran faster at Dew it on the trails, than the girls that ran faster at Blakely after running at Jessie Owens. There is a reason all the top rankings are from the same three courses. I actually appreciate all the slow courses in Mobile. We have never raced at dew it on the trails, but i am guessing teams that run there expect to have pr's.
There's no difference between the improvements of the girls who raced at Jessie Owens then ran faster at Dew it on the trails, than the girls that ran faster at Blakely after running at Jessie Owens. There is a reason all the top rankings are from the same three courses. I actually appreciate all the slow courses in Mobile. We have never raced at dew it on the trails, but i am guessing teams that run there expect to have pr's.
10/16/2012 3:01:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Coach R, Will the results from the Battle at Blakely eventually be merged in with the rest of the results state-wide so local athletes will see the impact of their fast times on their state rankings?
Coach R, Will the results from the Battle at Blakely eventually be merged in with the rest of the results state-wide so local athletes will see the impact of their fast times on their state rankings?
10/16/2012 3:39:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 12
The times were turned into Alabamarunners.com... I am not exactly sure how and when they merge the times in with the rest of the state. I think we all know that time is irrelevant in cross country. Cross Country is a race about points and placing high, position wise. What it all comes down to is who shows up and runs fast at the state championships... those are the races that people remember and keep track of. Thanks to everyone who supported the race, I hope it was one you want to come back to next year.
The times were turned into Alabamarunners.com... I am not exactly sure how and when they merge the times in with the rest of the state. I think we all know that time is irrelevant in cross country. Cross Country is a race about points and placing high, position wise. What it all comes down to is who shows up and runs fast at the state championships... those are the races that people remember and keep track of. Thanks to everyone who supported the race, I hope it was one you want to come back to next year.
10/16/2012 7:53:03 PM
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Alright guys. This is all getting a bit ridiculous. I’m not one to usually care about cross times because they are all subjective anyway… But including times from courses like Scottsboro and Dew it on the Trails, and not Battle of Blakeley is just wrong. I have no problem with the directors throwing out “questionable courses” and “questionable times.” In fact, I would encourage it. However, it needs to be consistent. I have heard that the milesplit.us guys frown on these fast courses. Let’s throw them all out from the last 10 years. The issue is that all the courses in the Mobile area are on the grass, in the mud, in the extreme heat, and are ALL 5000m. There are no hard packed trail courses, or cool running conditions, or humidities less than 100% before mid to late October. Ask Strozier and the Scottsboro kids. They all came down to the great stampede and ran a minute or so slower than the week before... There is a reason most of the northern schools don’t come down to Challenge of Champions anymore. You drive a long way for slow times (compared to the ones in B’ham or north). And it's the same reason runners like Carlos had only ran 1806 and then ran 1726 on a "slow" Jesse Owens course. The point is that it is NOT unreasonable to for these Mobile kids to start running a lot faster when conditions improve. Carlos, Hope, and the other good kids to come out of Mobile do it EVERY year. And all that aside, let’s just look at some numbers shall we? The following runners all ran at Jessie Owens and then ran on these “fast courses” the next week. To make my point: I chose the fastest runners (that actually ran both courses) from both McT and UMS. The other schools I just choose a couple of people in the top ten who I knew ran both courses. On the girls side: Lazarchick and Glover both at Battle of Blakeley and ran 36 and 39 sec faster than the previous week. Strozier and Pidcock both ran at Dew it on the Trails and ran 37 and 43 sec faster respectively. On the boys side: Hope and Aguirre both ran at Battle of Blakeley and ran 56 and 31 sec faster respectively. Rush, Russell, and Given both ran Dew it on the Trails and ran 59, 60, and 41sec faster. … The point being that it’s just automatically unreasonable that the Mobile kids could run so much faster a week later, but the kids from these northern schools do it every year… so that’s never in question. It’s always been accepted. And I’ve never cared until someone down here did make a course, on a hard packed trail, in the woods, that is mostly downhill, in October, and our kids did run fast. But no faster than these other kids on these other “questionable courses.” And let’s just call it what it is. The Scottsboro course is short. Period. And Dew it on the Trails may be “mostly downhill” and the rest. But it’s about 80-160m short too. Throw them all out. Or keep them. I don't care. But don't pick and choose. It is not fair to these kids who are putting in 50-70 miles/wk. So as usual. I can't wait for track because "that quarter mile oval may be one of the few places in the world where the * can't screw you over, Quenton..." Once a Runner.
Alright guys. This is all getting a bit ridiculous. I'm not one to usually care about cross times because they are all subjective anyway… But including times from courses like Scottsboro and Dew it on the Trails, and not Battle of Blakeley is just wrong. I have no problem with the directors throwing out "questionable courses" and "questionable times." In fact, I would encourage it. However, it needs to be consistent. I have heard that the milesplit.us guys frown on these fast courses. Let's throw them all out from the last 10 years.

The issue is that all the courses in the Mobile area are on the grass, in the mud, in the extreme heat, and are ALL 5000m. There are no hard packed trail courses, or cool running conditions, or humidities less than 100% before mid to late October. Ask Strozier and the Scottsboro kids. They all came down to the great stampede and ran a minute or so slower than the week before... There is a reason most of the northern schools don't come down to Challenge of Champions anymore. You drive a long way for slow times (compared to the ones in B'ham or north). And it's the same reason runners like Carlos had only ran 1806 and then ran 1726 on a "slow" Jesse Owens course.

The point is that it is NOT unreasonable to for these Mobile kids to start running a lot faster when conditions improve. Carlos, Hope, and the other good kids to come out of Mobile do it EVERY year.

And all that aside, let's just look at some numbers shall we? The following runners all ran at Jessie Owens and then ran on these "fast courses" the next week. To make my point: I chose the fastest runners (that actually ran both courses) from both McT and UMS. The other schools I just choose a couple of people in the top ten who I knew ran both courses.

On the girls side:
Lazarchick and Glover both at Battle of Blakeley and ran 36 and 39 sec faster than the previous week.
Strozier and Pidcock both ran at Dew it on the Trails and ran 37 and 43 sec faster respectively.

On the boys side:
Hope and Aguirre both ran at Battle of Blakeley and ran 56 and 31 sec faster respectively.
Rush, Russell, and Given both ran Dew it on the Trails and ran 59, 60, and 41sec faster.

… The point being that it's just automatically unreasonable that the Mobile kids could run so much faster a week later, but the kids from these northern schools do it every year… so that's never in question. It's always been accepted. And I've never cared until someone down here did make a course, on a hard packed trail, in the woods, that is mostly downhill, in October, and our kids did run fast. But no faster than these other kids on these other "questionable courses." And let's just call it what it is. The Scottsboro course is short. Period. And Dew it on the Trails may be "mostly downhill" and the rest. But it's about 80-160m short too.

Throw them all out. Or keep them. I don't care. But don't pick and choose. It is not fair to these kids who are putting in 50-70 miles/wk. So as usual. I can't wait for track because "that quarter mile oval may be one of the few places in the world where the * can't screw you over, Quenton..."

Once a Runner.
10/16/2012 8:26:03 PM
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@m___ Those stupid milesplit.us guys.....lets tar and feather em all. I'm really surprised I havent heard more about this in my email. In reality, I cant pull the performances from the results that were posted without running them thru racetab. I had to do the same thing with the "Dew It" results but those were in columns...it makes a difference in how quickly I can do it. I requested flat html results earlier today and havent gotten them yet. If my daughter goes to bed at a decent hour tonight, Ill try to get atleast one set of race performances added. UPDATE: They are going to take forever to reformat. Ill just wait on the flat html copies to be sent. Tim -- the "milesplit.us" guy S-)
@m___ Those stupid milesplit.us guys.....lets tar and feather em all.

I'm really surprised I havent heard more about this in my email. In reality, I cant pull the performances from the results that were posted without running them thru racetab. I had to do the same thing with the "Dew It" results but those were in columns...it makes a difference in how quickly I can do it. I requested flat html results earlier today and havent gotten them yet.

If my daughter goes to bed at a decent hour tonight, Ill try to get atleast one set of race performances added.

UPDATE: They are going to take forever to reformat. Ill just wait on the flat html copies to be sent.

Tim -- the "milesplit.us" guy
10/16/2012 9:10:45 PM
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The post was only in protest to the "idea" that the times WOULD or SHOULD not be added due to the fast times... period. It was not a complaint that they HAVE not been posted or would be posted at a later time. I have been following for long enough to know and appreciate that it takes time to get things posted, and that you are not paid for your services. Also, "the milesplit.us guys" was a national reference not a "al.milesplit" reference. I sincerely appologize for the miscommunication.
The post was only in protest to the "idea" that the times WOULD or SHOULD not be added due to the fast times... period.

It was not a complaint that they HAVE not been posted or would be posted at a later time. I have been following for long enough to know and appreciate that it takes time to get things posted, and that you are not paid for your services.

Also, "the milesplit.us guys" was a national reference not a "al.milesplit" reference. I sincerely appologize for the miscommunication.
10/17/2012 10:34:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
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@Steeplechasekj A Garmin GPS watch measured it at 2.89 miles. Might want to get that wheel calibrated.
@Steeplechasekj

A Garmin GPS watch measured it at 2.89 miles. Might want to get that wheel calibrated.
10/18/2012 7:40:43 AM
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Wheres the outcry for Dew it on the trails or Scottboros course? Ultimately, everyone in South Alabama should have just run at Dew it on the Trails. Would have been the same result and no complaining.
Wheres the outcry for Dew it on the trails or Scottboros course? Ultimately, everyone in South Alabama should have just run at Dew it on the Trails. Would have been the same result and no complaining.
10/18/2012 8:19:15 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 69
Wouldn't you all agree that we are doing our athletes a disservice when we tell them they have a new PR for a 5k when they compete on a short course. I have no doubt that battle of blakeley was short. I cannot attest to others. If you host a meet, measure it so it reflects the true distance. I am not here to bash anyone or to be hurtful, I just wish to speak on behalf of our kids. What do I tell my athlete when he or she runs on a fast and short course. Sorry, your time doesn't count, however, you did a great job competing. We should always keep in mind that we are expecting our athletes to do their best. Coach, if you host a meet do your best to make the course reflect the distance you say it is. There are many tools out there that can make this possible. I am not directing this to any specifics person, this is in general for anyone who host a meet. Do your part! We pay entry fees for a reason. Thanks. I speak all of this in love. We care about our kids, isn't this why we do this.
Wouldn't you all agree that we are doing our athletes a disservice when we tell them they have a new PR for a 5k when they compete on a short course. I have no doubt that battle of blakeley was short. I cannot attest to others. If you host a meet, measure it so it reflects the true distance. I am not here to bash anyone or to be hurtful, I just wish to speak on behalf of our kids. What do I tell my athlete when he or she runs on a fast and short course. Sorry, your time doesn't count, however, you did a great job competing. We should always keep in mind that we are expecting our athletes to do their best. Coach, if you host a meet do your best to make the course reflect the distance you say it is. There are many tools out there that can make this possible. I am not directing this to any specifics person, this is in general for anyone who host a meet. Do your part! We pay entry fees for a reason. Thanks. I speak all of this in love. We care about our kids, isn't this why we do this.
10/18/2012 8:59:22 AM
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Wow! Two Debates in one week! I have to say this one is more fun, and the participants know their facts better than those in the debate of Tuesday night.
Wow! Two Debates in one week! I have to say this one is more fun, and the participants know their facts better than those in the debate of Tuesday night.
10/18/2012 8:44:46 PM
Coach
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 69
My words are too harsh. I apologize to Kevin jones, Spanish fort, and anyone else I may have offended. It is hard work setting up a race and hosting it. My goal was not upset anyone and I have.
My words are too harsh. I apologize to Kevin jones, Spanish fort, and anyone else I may have offended. It is hard work setting up a race and hosting it. My goal was not upset anyone and I have.
10/19/2012 10:02:39 PM
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"The Scottsboro course is short. Period. And Dew it on the Trails may be “mostly downhill” and the rest. But it’s about 80-160m short too." I can not attest to any course other than Dew it on the Trails. Many years ago I was put in charge of the Dew it on the Trails course.(maybe 1999) The 1st thing I did was measure and found it to be short. I let the coach know and then had a Track club person come and verify that I was correct and that I was measuring the proper way (as best as can be done in cross country) When I was given the OK to follow thru with changes I sat down and decided that I would make the course as fast as possible for the kids (End of season right before the important stretch run to state)The course is designed for fast times not for Spectators or even coaches (especially those on bikes):-D The course is 1 and 1/4 mile on the road (flat and wide) you then come back on hard packed trails that are shaded. I have measured this course over 30 times.(three different wheels) I have accompanied 7 different coaches as they measured the course and I was present 6 years ago when Mountian Brook came with three wheels and measured the course. If you feel a course is incorrect contact the coach and voice your concerns. mistakes can be made but at least let the coach know (After all he has put in countless hours putting together the meet and deserves the respect of at least a heads up.) We are all in this for the kids. Coach Rick Doke Decatur Cross Country
"The Scottsboro course is short. Period. And Dew it on the Trails may be "mostly downhill" and the rest. But it's about 80-160m short too." I can not attest to any course other than Dew it on the Trails. Many years ago I was put in charge of the Dew it on the Trails course.(maybe 1999) The 1st thing I did was measure and found it to be short. I let the coach know and then had a Track club person come and verify that I was correct and that I was measuring the proper way (as best as can be done in cross country) When I was given the OK to follow thru with changes I sat down and decided that I would make the course as fast as possible for the kids (End of season right before the important stretch run to state)The course is designed for fast times not for Spectators or even coaches (especially those on bikes) The course is 1 and 1/4 mile on the road (flat and wide) you then come back on hard packed trails that are shaded. I have measured this course over 30 times.(three different wheels) I have accompanied 7 different coaches as they measured the course and I was present 6 years ago when Mountian Brook came with three wheels and measured the course. If you feel a course is incorrect contact the coach and voice your concerns. mistakes can be made but at least let the coach know (After all he has put in countless hours putting together the meet and deserves the respect of at least a heads up.) We are all in this for the kids.
Coach Rick Doke
Decatur Cross Country
10/19/2012 10:19:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 17
GPS is not an acceptable method of measuring a race course. Those watches measure by satellite. Therefore, trees and tangents (or lack of running tangents) can greatly interfere with a final "measurement."
GPS is not an acceptable method of measuring a race course. Those watches measure by satellite. Therefore, trees and tangents (or lack of running tangents) can greatly interfere with a final "measurement."

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